Update: This is an overdue update to this blog entry, noting that a late appeal from Venezuela was received and accepted after the deadline recognized by ISO/IEC. I had thought I would write a separate entry on it, but as it is now old news, I am updating this entry so as not to leave a misleading impression that the final count was only three.
Last night was the deadline for filing appeals to the adoption of OOXML by ISO/IEC JTC 1. This morning, a spokesman for the IEC acknowledged the receipt of a total of three appeals by the deadline, with the third and final appeal being filed by India, as reported by Peter Sayers, of the IDG News Service. I have no news as yet whether the fourth country that planned to file an appeal has decided not to do so, missed the deadline, or sent its letter only to ISO (Peter reports that an ISO spokesman declined to confirm how many appeals it has received at this time. The deadline date is a matter of some confusion, as some National Bodies were under the impression that the deadline was June 2, so it remains possible that a fourth appeal will (or already has been) received.
In other technicality news, the IEC spokesman noted that the Brazil letter had been improperly addressed - duplicate copies should have been sent to the CEOs of both the IEC and ISO - but that this technical irregularity would be waived [Jonathan Buck, the IEC spokesman, inaccurately stated to Peter that the Indian appeal, rather than the Brazilian appeal, had been improperly addressed; the IDG story will be corrected shortly]
More substantively, what happens next? Ironically, "what happens next" is described in the same general and sometimes vague Directives that have caused ongoing dissent in the process to date, and figure prominently in the South African and Brazilian appeals themselves.
According to Jonathan Buck, the IEC spokesman, the CEOs of the two organizations are charged with trying to reach a solution with each of the National Bodies that have filed appeals. If that fails after one month of effort, then the issue is transferred to two committees, one in each of the two sponsoring organization of Joint Technical Committee 1 (JTC 1). They are the Technical Management Board (at ISO) and the Standards Management Board (at the IEC).
Here's how the actual rules under the Directives for handling appeals describe the process:
11.2.2 Upon receipt, the JTC 1 Secretariat shall advise all its P-members of the appeal, and take immediate action, by correspondence or at a meeting, to consider and decide on the appeal, consulting the Secretaries-General in the process.
"Upon receipt" appears to have been interpreted as "after the deadline has passed." Presumably the three NBs involved will now be contacted.
11.2.3 If JTC 1 supports the SC, the P-member who initiated the appeal may either
• Accept the JTC 1 decision, or
• Appeal against it.
"Supports the SC" here presumably means that if the Secretaries-General (the "CEOs" referred to by the IEC spokesman) are of the opinion that the appeals do not justify the action(s) requested in the appeals. Given that there have been three appeals, two of which only partially overlap in their objections, and the third of which has not yet been disclosed, there are a variety of possible permutations which may occur entering and exiting this step.
11.3.3 The Secretaries-General shall, following whatever consultations they deem appropriate, refer the appeal together with their comments to the TMB/SMB within one month after receipt of the appeal.
This is in alignment with the spokesman's comments, as quoted in the IDG story.
11.3.4 The TMB/SMB shall decide whether an appeal shall be further processed or not. If the decision is in favour of proceeding, the Chairmen of the TMB/SMB shall form a conciliation panel (see 9.2). The conciliation panel shall hear the appeal and attempt to resolve the difference of opinion as soon as practicable. If the conciliation panel is unsuccessful in its endeavours, it shall so report within three months to the Secretaries-General, giving its recommendations on how the matter should be settled.
As with the other rules that have been at issue in the OOXML Fast Track process thus far, those that will apply here are superficially rational - but also superficial, when it comes to detail. As has consistently been the case to date, that means that a great deal is left to the discretion to those in the ISO/IEC hierarchy. What this means is that ultimate control of the resolution remains in the hands of the same individuals, and their colleagues, that made or approved, the decisions in the first instance upon which the appeals are based.
As a result, we can expect that any poorly justified rejection of these appeals will be met with the as much disagreement and emotion as virtually ever other judgment made under the same Directives along this long and winding road.
I will update this post later as necessary, and also add the text of the Indian appeal when and if it becomes available.
For further blog entries on , click here
- 25582 views
Comments
You're a lwayer, Andy
Well, in the same regard the NB vote is in so why should the "shalls" that you quote have any more force than the ones regarding the BRM itself? What happens if the ISO Secretariat just round-files these protests?
You're a lwayer, Andy
For example, say the Geneva power supply was unavailable for a month, computers were down, and this delayed progress of some standard. Obviously deadlines would be adjusted accordingly. You don't win or lose on a technicality at JTC1: it is the national body votes that count.
Cheers
Rick Jelliffe
Word games again
There's been a lot of words over the dam on the idea that standards language is a precise dialect and that the Directives are written in standards language so that terms in the Directives have the same meaning as terms in the standards themselves.
I therefore present the thought experiment: as you have observed, there is not and should not be any practical difference if the "shall" clauses governing the BRM are not met. In the spirit of uniform interpretation, then, what is to be said of a proposed instantiation of DIS-29500 that doesn't always close tags?
Word games again
But if the spec for W3C XML did say
"A well-formed document shall accord to the syntax rules in this recommendation unless specifically deemed well-formed by the Director"
then it would not in any way dilute "shall" because both are absolute requirements.
Cheers
Rick Jelliffe
Make that Three: India Appeals Adoption of OOXML
Make that Three: India Appeals Adoption of OOXML
India, Brazil, and South Africa can also take ISO to the international courts
India, Brazil, and South Africa can also take ISO to the international courts
That could be bad for Microsoft and possibly very embarrassing for many Microsoft supporters both within the NBs and in positions of higher authority.
It could also go some way toward converting Microsoft into a truly viral and toxic political bedfellow - world-wide.
India, Brazil, and South Africa can also take ISO to the international courts
A trade treaty is one between nation states. ISO is a voluntary organization of standards bodies, one per country. It is no more accountable to International Courts than Rotary (the service club) is: which is not to say that there could not be national action (or delegated national action, as in the EU case.)
Cheers
Rick Jelliffe
India, Brazil, and South Africa can also take ISO to the international courts
However, I can think of one not at all inconceivable way in which the connection could be made. Under the Technical Barriers to Trade Agreement, a country cannot use a requirement to use a home-grown standard when a global standard exists, or needless conformance testing requirement, to keep foreign goods out of its market. If China, for example, were to require that all office suites should be compatible with its own UOF XML format standard and Microsoft were to try to get the US government to contest the action through an action under the TBTA through the World Trade Organization because (by then) OOXML had received final approval, one could imagine that China might contest the validity of OOXML, leaving it free to ignore OOXML and require UOF compliance.
This isn't a totally real world example, since ODF is out there as well, so I offer it only to show that there can be a nexus between ISO/IEC approval and international trade disputes under treaties that can be taken before appropriate international tribunals.
- Andy
India, Brazil, and South Africa can also take ISO to the international courts
But it is not "taking ISO to the International Courts"!
Cheers
Rick Jelliffe
I'm not so sure that there are no consequences
For example, if the BRM did not follow the appropriate voting rules, the BRM votes are declared invalid. The BRM is declared a failure at not having reached any consensus on OOXML and OOXML fails. The appeals are vidicated, the remedies requested are satisfied, everyone wins (Even Microsoft who is now using ODF and has abandoned ISO OOXML anyway).
I think it's reasonable to argue that rules that specify "SHALL" are accompanied by the implied action that whatever the "SHALL" was in support of would not be valid unless the "SHALL" was satisfied.
In that vein, failure to distribute the final text within one month of the BRM (a 'SHALL' rule) would result in the revised text being invalid simply because the 'SHALL' was not followed and the distribution of the final DIS29500 was not given any exception during the 1-month window.
Therefore, because the distribution of DIS29500 was not accomplished, the distribution failed. Because the distribution of the draft was a required step in the approval of DIS29500 (the 'SHALL' word again), DIS29500 approval failed.
Simple really. I fail to understand how so many MS supporters fail to comprehend simple English.
That's the question, though, isn't it?
That's exactly what Rick and I are going around about. His position is that no matter what happens at the BRM, the final vote of the NBs is sovereign.
If so, I point out that there is no practical difference between "shall" and "should" or "may."
That's the question, though, isn't it?
If the BRM is nullified, then the NBs voted on the wrong document and they would either need to vote over, or their vote would also be nullified.
Rick can say what he likes, but if the NBs voted on the wrong document or on an invalid document (because of the BRM being invalid in not following its own rules), then the approval for some non-existent verion of DIS29500 that the NBs thought they voted on may or may not have been valid (it doesn't really matter), but the actual DIS29500 (unmodified by the BRM) would never have had a vote other than the 'no' from September.
Therefore, I don't see where Rick has an argument other than promoting an agenda.
An apparently important question on deadlines
"By the deadline last night, we had received three appeals, from Brazil, India and South Africa," said Jonathan Buck, spokesman for IEC.
They are late delivering the final text by one month. If they fail to implement the proposed changes from the BRM, and the deadline for appeals is already over, how can the NB appeal !?
I'm confused! Shouldn't the deadline for appeals be extended by as much time as the delay in delivering the final text?
This seems highly irregular since you can not appeal based on technical issues remaining on the standard! Right?
An apparently important question on deadlines
If fact, they are already late delivering the final text by 2 months. The deadline was one month after the BRM (ended on 29-Feb), so it was 29-Mar. We are now on 30-May, i.e. 2 months after the deadline.
Luc Bollen
An apparently important question on deadlines
“http://www.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/sc34/open/1026c.htm
Resolution 8: Distribution of Final text of DIS 29500″
“SC 34 requests the ITTF and the SC34 secretariat to distribute the already received final text of DIS 29500 to the SC 34 members in accordance with JTC 1 directives section 13.12 as soon as possible, but not later than May 1st 2008. Access to this document is important for the success of various ISO/IEC 29500 maintenance activities.”
JTC1-directives, Section 13.13:
“13.12 (…)
• In not more than one month after the ballot resolution group meeting the SC Secretariat shall
distribute the final report of the meeting and final DIS text in case of acceptance.”
An apparently important question on deadlines
Eric
An apparently important question on deadlines
So much then for the 1st of May, another month later and we still don't have the final text.
An apparently important question on deadlines
An apparently important question on deadlines
An apparently important question on deadlines
It strikes me that there is some relationship between the final text being made available to the NB's within 30 days of the close of the BRM, and those same NB's having 30 days from the end of the BRM to reconsider their vote.
Regards
Bob Jolliffe
An apparently important question on deadlines
You might think so
Only at first blush.
The problem is that a final version that arrives the same day as (or day before) the deadline isn't really any better for thoughtful consideration, meeting, consensus, etc. than one that arrives a day after the deadline.
On the other hand, the deadline for appeals and the final version have a lot more to do with each other. NBs can reasonably vote for reconsideration based on the results of the BRM [1] and then if the draft comes back substantially different from what they were led to believe they were voting on they can appeal on the grounds that either the text is wrong or their vote was based on them being misled.
[1] Remember, this process assumes a typical ISO document of only a few pages.
An apparently important question on deadlines
The appeals on *decisions* have the two month deadline 11.1.1. So appeals based on decisions on the BRM could be clocked, but an appeal based on something in the endorsed text of the standard would be entirely possible even after the deadline (if the text is only available after the post-BRM deadline appeal) as an "action". Again, I don't see that there is a "poison fruit" doctrine operation: you would expect remedies to be ones which would help the issue be fixed, rather than overturning the ballot. And I expect that delaying appeals reduces their power.
I don't know anyone who thinks that it is preferable to vote without having the endorsed text; nor do I know anyone who wants to sign up for JTC1 duties to try to get the Directives changed.
Cheers
Rick Jelliffe
(As with a lot of standards and laws, trying to interpret them independently of training in their meaning is unfortunately fraught with difficulty. That is unfortunately a property of language and a thorn. It will be interesting to see if the ITTF or JTC1 people say that JTC1 intended to set up a distinction between actions and decisions, or whether it is just a phantom in the text. )
English as a standard
Quote: "... this technical irregularity would be waived."
Rules are waived, technical irregularities are overlooked ;-)
English as a standard
See http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39427754,00.htm?r=1
Luc Bollen
Make it Four : Venezuela joins the 3 other countries.
Luc Bollen
Make it Five? Is Denmark's, official?
I don't know from reading Groklaw's article if it is an official appeal, though. The letter is from "Open Source Leverandørforeningen", which doesn't sound like something that would be authorized to represent Denmark in an appeal. I assume only the national standard bodies can appeal.
Eric
Make it Five? Is Denmark's, official?
It is interesting that they are complaining that they didn't have the endorsed text for their final meeting March 26, when the normal deadline for a final text would be a month after the finish of the BRM which finished Feb 29. It is reasonable to ask for the reason that an expected text was not ready after a deadline, but stretching it a little to complain that it was not available before the deadline, no? Grasping at straws.
Cheers
Rick jelliffe
Make it Five? Is Denmark's, official?
> It is interesting that they are complaining that they didn't have the endorsed text for their final meeting March 26, when the normal deadline for a final text would be a month after the finish of the BRM which finished Feb 29.
these are two separate complaints wrapped into one sentence...
1) the schedule was so f*cked up that the final meeting was placed before the delivery of the final text
2) even the latter deadline was missed
I fail to see how this relates to grasping at straws as both complaints are reasonable, but in your version of the reality it may be a good idea to decide on a text you can't read...